[WoW] The War Within Announced!

An update on recent technical problems and more from the admin: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/250292/on-technical-difficulties-mod-coverage-and-other-things/p1?new=1

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Saeris Borb Enthusiast flapflapflapflapRegistered User regular
June 12
I liked the maze before it was solved with addons. I wish they'd do more stuff like that... and prevent addons from solving them.

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Lucascraft Registered User regular
June 12
I think a person's perspective on dungeons also is largely determined by the context in which they originally ran those dungeons.
For someone like me, I tend to PUG a lot of keys. And some of the mechanics that are considered "easy" or "solved" to well coordinated groups on coms can be an absolute nightmare in PUGs. So my perspective on running Mists and Necrotic is gonna be massively different from someone like Dhalphir who was doing MDI and Great Push with an extremely high level static group.
Even when I ran those dungeons in guild groups, I still didn't particularly care for them. Mists was definitely more bearable. I didn't outright hate it when I was running with my guild. I still didn't like it, but the dislike was more of a dull murmur than a roar. I never enjoyed Necrotic. Even with a full guild group.
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kaid Registered User regular
June 12
The problem with the maze is not even solving it. Your path through it is different run to run and the amount of trash you get varies so it can be a bit of a pain to get the amount of kills you want without getting way to many or way to few unless you do some weird cheese with pets pulling stuff that is walled off.
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admanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
June 12
Wake and Mists were both fine. They definitely weren't the dungeons I would've chosen to bring back from SL but they don't get the "f*ck no" response that Spires/Theater would've.
A lot of it depends on how things are tuned and tweaked, which goes for Siege and Grim Batol as well. I think Throne of the Tides ended up being one of the best dungeons of S3 so I have some faith in them.

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kaid Registered User regular
June 12
Grim batol is a weird one I am super curious how that is changed/updated to work in mythic+
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reVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
June 12
In a surprise twist, they didn't have to change it all. They just slapped +20 to the name and created a bunch of easier versions.
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TryCatcher Registered User regular
June 12
I kinda liked the bosses and the theme of Theater, but the sheer amount of trash mobs filled with super bullsh*t is just too much. Platform area and the way to the Abom boss were super f*cking exhausting.
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Kai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
June 12
I will agree on a single thing. Wake has major issues with the end. Those two specific bosses back to back were a huge issue. Both greatly promote being blasted down to skip getting additional downtime phases, that create pretty significant breakpoints. Which results in them requiring one time use weapons, which led to keys being bricked from a single wipe. It was a common issue with SL dungeons to varying degrees.
I feel mists at worst is a mediocre dungeon. I find all bosses fine, and other than some groups struggle bussing the maze it's chill.
I never saw the hate for grim batol. I... Legit liked that dungeon. It will need tweaks though but honestly the changes they managed for throne made it work. It promoted some bad stuff like pure vengeance dh op control, but it still worked. They likely will fix it to being functional.
I am almost certain seige does not go into this season having different horde and alliance paths. They will pick one
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Dac Registered User regular
June 12
I mean, people hate grim batty because of the dragons, but without the dragons that dungeon was a f*cking nightmare.
They could remove a bunch of trash, but then that place will feel empty. Idk.

Steam: catseye543
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admanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
June 12
TryCatcher wrote: »
I kinda liked the bosses and the theme of Theater, but the sheer amount of trash mobs filled with super bullsh*t is just too much. Platform area and the way to the Abom boss were super f*cking exhausting.
Theater has two good bosses, one okay one (PvP boss) and one trash boss (the lich that does nothing). All the trash is a nightmare and the platform section is how I imagine hell.
I'd prolly be a lot less down on it if it wasn't so long.

twitter, github
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Sprout Registered User regular
June 13
Get rid of the Necrotic Wake weapons and rebalance around not having them.

See Also
WotLK Ultimate Alliance Leveling + TIPS Guide [1-80 the right way]!WoW War Within Release Date And Overview | Epiccarry Shaman - Full Caster(WoW 5e) by Iriazi
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Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
June 13
the main problem I had with theater was just that people always seemed to be trying to do janky sh*t in there and it almost always wound up costing more time than it'd ever have saved; the dungeon itself wasn't so bad
the 'bad' dungeons were spires and sanguine depths imo; both too long and too punishing on trash mechanics, at least until they got nerfed a bunch of times. Honorable mention to other side, but mostly just cause it was way too long

hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
June 13
the last boss of wake has an issue on high tyr that they at least seem to have learned to design around; because the shields come out on a timer, eventually you just don't have enough damage to keep up no matter how well you execute the thing. A couple bosses in DF have had similar behaviors (e.g. last boss of HoI) and fortunately they changed the way its phases worked. Hopefully they'll apply the same lesson in wake and it'll just shield at 75/50/25 or something

hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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Dhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
June 13
admanb wrote: »
TryCatcher wrote: »
I kinda liked the bosses and the theme of Theater, but the sheer amount of trash mobs filled with super bullsh*t is just too much. Platform area and the way to the Abom boss were super f*cking exhausting.
Theater has two good bosses, one okay one (PvP boss) and one trash boss (the lich that does nothing). All the trash is a nightmare and the platform section is how I imagine hell.
I'd prolly be a lot less down on it if it wasn't so long.
Theater would have been a great dungeon if they just got rid of the whole undead wing with the Lich boss.
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Smrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
June 13
Dhalphir wrote: »
admanb wrote: »
TryCatcher wrote: »
I kinda liked the bosses and the theme of Theater, but the sheer amount of trash mobs filled with super bullsh*t is just too much. Platform area and the way to the Abom boss were super f*cking exhausting.
Theater has two good bosses, one okay one (PvP boss) and one trash boss (the lich that does nothing). All the trash is a nightmare and the platform section is how I imagine hell.
I'd prolly be a lot less down on it if it wasn't so long.
Theater would have been a great dungeon if they just got rid of the whole undead wing with the Lich boss.
Hell, I'd take a space to stealth to without landing into combat.
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Kai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
June 13
and got rid of randomly selected lieutenants
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kaid Registered User regular
June 13
Dac wrote: »
I mean, people hate grim batty because of the dragons, but without the dragons that dungeon was a f*cking nightmare.
They could remove a bunch of trash, but then that place will feel empty. Idk.
Yup that is why I think it is a weird choice. keep it as is but mythic plus it and you have this weird somewhat longish sequence as you bomb the crap out of things with the dragons which is an odd choice in M+ or cut the dragon part out and you now have a pretty long not super interesting hallway to fight your way through.
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Brainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
June 13
I made a Blood Elf death knight for the meta achievement but I am not feeling Unholy [blood the tank and unholy are the specs I have not played and generally in Panda I am playing specs I have not tried before or in epoch}
Someone said they are buffing Dk's in the next EXP. My DK is37
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TryCatcher Registered User regular
June 13 edited June 13
So, for those wondering how MMO-Champion is doing, the beta thread is so filled with racism over Faerin that Ian "Red Shirt Guy" Bates actually had to call them out about it:
This has been bugging me more than it probably should, but there's been a multi page argument on MMO-Champion's 10.0 beta discussion thread about whether Faerin being black "makes sense in lore." So let me clarify: there are lots of black Arathi NPCs besides her.
Obviously, do not read the comments to that tweet.
Brainleech wrote: »
I made a Blood Elf death knight for the meta achievement but I am not feeling Unholy [blood the tank and unholy are the specs I have not played and generally in Panda I am playing specs I have not tried before or in epoch}
Someone said they are buffing Dk's in the next EXP. My DK is37
They are reworking Unholy a bit to make it have less fiddly bits, but you can just see Beta footage or wait until prepatch to decide, plenty of time.

TryCatcher on June 13
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Lucascraft Registered User regular
June 13
Unholy can definitely pump in retail. I have seen some insane numbers coming out of that spec. But I personally find it very boring to play. I'd rather play Frost even though it definitely does not have the high skill ceiling that Unholy has.
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kaid Registered User regular
June 13
Unholy is fiddly but if you can play it right it cranks damage especially if you do big pulls.

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Brainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
June 13
I agree but against single targets it just doesn't feel right but I may have spec'd them wrong
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admanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
June 13
UDK is a ramping damage spec so it's gonna feel clunky in the open world, where you expect to kill anything in five GCDs and move on to the next thing.

twitter, github
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TryCatcher Registered User regular
June 13
Oh, on the "there's too many X" thing, historically on WoW the most played classes have always been Hunter, Paladin and Druid, just like the most played races are Human and the different elf flavors.
It will always be this way, so up to each player if that's an issue.
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TryCatcher Registered User regular
June 13 edited June 13
So, we know have the answer on how things are going to work on M+:
A preview of some changes to returning dungeons:
Siege of Boralus

Players of both factions will go through the Alliance version of the dungeon in Mythic and Mythic+
Ashvane Spotter’s Sighted Artillery no longer damages enemy creatures.
Necrotic Wake
Malfunctioning Goliath
Disabled in Mythic and Mythic+
Forgotten Hammer
Removed
Bloody Javelin
Initial damage reduced by 90%
Now applies a stacking vulnerability to enemies hit.
Discarded Shield
Is no longer a channeled effect.
Players can now use abilities after the shield is activated.
Spawning locations for Discarded Shield, Bloody Javelin and Discharged Anima have been updated
Mists of Tirna Scithe

Vine gates and check point can now be used by Tauren, Highmountain Tauren, Night Elf, Druids and Herbalist
Well, Siege needed addressing since the "make a mob big and use it to kill other mobs" was really, really dumb, ditto having two versions. Wake, they basically nerfed/removed the weapons so that means a lot more groups having to do third and last boss the hard way, so be ready to hear complaints about that. Mists is whatever, though at this point they should just let everybody use the thing.
TryCatcher on June 13
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admanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
June 13
The Alliance version of Siege is definitely the one that everyone hates but w/e. They'll tune it.
NW tuned around not killing bosses with weapons is an excellent dungeon. Leaving in Anima is nice because that allows some sick pulls. Javelin applying vuln is 1000% more fun.
Mists griefing you for not bringing hippies is objectively funny.

twitter, github
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Javen Registered User regular
June 13
Between the affix changes and the removal of unique aspects of dungeons, really not been a fan of most of the changes lately. I don't think dungeons should just be a series of training dummy sessions, but that seems to be a minority opinion.

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Javen Registered User regular
June 13
The downside, other than boring vs interesting, is that when you hom*ogenize content and still want to make it challenging, you have fewer ways in which to do so, which usually results in the challenge factor being modified through things like one-hit mechanics, or, more likely, MUCH tighter timers.
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TryCatcher Registered User regular
June 13
Dumb gimmick weapons are the opposite of making content challenging.

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Vontre Registered User regular
June 13
I remember the weapons adding an important element of routing strategy and coordination.
Probably not much fun for pugs but I mean.... I dunno.
Necrotic Wake sucks because it is ugly. No other reason.
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Vontre Registered User regular
June 13
Here are the reasons dungeons suck:
- Ugly
- Too long
Anything else is a skill issue to me. Though it seems no one else agrees.

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admanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
June 13
I don’t think weapons that played the game for you were ever “challenging.” Like, in NW you had to make sure you got all the hammers/spears but without accidentally overwriting one or grabbing it after an anima. And then you had to… click the button on the boss when his shield went up when it was your turn. Then if you wiped you were completely f*cked.
None of that is challenging, it’s punishing.
The challenge of M+ should be dealing with boss and trash mechanics while executing your rotation, plus planning out CDs and defensive at higher levels. Stuff like the new spear design plays into that by giving you a damage amp rather than just doing all the damage itself, vs. playing bosses entirely off damage from spears and hammers which did not.

twitter, github
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Javen Registered User regular
June 13 edited June 13
Dungeons having unique aspects that must be factored in in order to execute the dungeon well is more interesting than not having those things. Same with affixes that aren't just mob tuning, most of which are slated to be removed in War Within.
Blizzard has decided, correctly or not, that what players ultimately want out of M+ is for the dungeon, or the affixes, not to matter. To have an entirely static and consistent experience, regardless of which dungeon you're doing, when you're doing it, or who you're doing it with. To me that makes the content less appealing.
It's a position that makes a lot of sense when you consider that when most players fail, determine that the factors that led to that failure must be external. 'the dungeon is bad' or 'the affixes this week suck' or 'our comp was unoptimal'. I think this will have a negative effect on the players treatment of meta comps as well. If every dungeon is just 'do rotations uninterrupted' then the meta classes will be that much more favored over the others.

Javen on June 13
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admanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
June 13
That's a statement that's easy to agree with conceptually but doesn't line up with the experience of actually playing most of those mechanics in dungeons.
There are dungeon mechanics that increase the challenge and skill requirement of dungeons in interesting ways, like the lanterns in Sanguine Depths or the stun/damage amp spears in Spires, but "click button do damage" isn't that.

twitter, github
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Javen Registered User regular
June 13 edited 12:07AM
admanb wrote: »
That's a statement that's easy to agree with conceptually but doesn't line up with the experience of actually playing most of those mechanics in dungeons.
There are dungeon mechanics that increase the challenge and skill requirement of dungeons in interesting ways, like the lanterns in Sanguine Depths or the stun/damage amp spears in Spires, but "click button do damage" isn't that.
All three of these are the same thing, because they require the tools to be used well, were required them to be used well in order to excel. Based on the changes made so far, I seriously doubt that the lanterns in sanguine depths or the spear in spires of ascension would survive an M+ tuning pass today, for the same reason that the weapons, and the anima, are being removed from Necrotic Wake.
All three tools are very easy to use and their intended implementation easy to intuit based on their tooltips and their use in lower difficulty levels, so ease of use isn't the issue, or the intended vector for which their existence adds additional depth to that specific dungeon. Knowing what/when is the best use of these tools, and the fact that the rest of the dungeon was very much balanced around their competent use, is what added the extra layer of complexity.
EDIT: 'I need to think differently on how to do well in Dungeon A vs Dungeon B vs Dungeon C' is a statement that I'd like to be true, but seems like is less likely to be the case than it has been in the past.

Javen at 12:07AM
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Vontre Registered User regular
12:18AM
Javen wrote: »
admanb wrote: »
That's a statement that's easy to agree with conceptually but doesn't line up with the experience of actually playing most of those mechanics in dungeons.
There are dungeon mechanics that increase the challenge and skill requirement of dungeons in interesting ways, like the lanterns in Sanguine Depths or the stun/damage amp spears in Spires, but "click button do damage" isn't that.
All three of these are the same thing, because they require the tools to be used well, were required them to be used well in order to excel. Based on the changes made so far, I seriously doubt that the lanterns in sanguine depths or the spear in spires of ascension would survive an M+ tuning pass today, for the same reason that the weapons, and the anima, are being removed from Necrotic Wake.
All three tools are very easy to use and their intended implementation easy to intuit based on their tooltips and their use in lower difficulty levels, so ease of use isn't the issue, or the intended vector for which their existence adds additional depth to that specific dungeon. Knowing what/when is the best use of these tools, and the fact that the rest of the dungeon was very much balanced around their competent use, is what added the extra layer of complexity.
EDIT: 'I need to think differently on how to do well in Dungeon A vs Dungeon B vs Dungeon C' is a statement that I'd like to be true, but seems like is less likely to be the case than it has been in the past.
Very much agree with this, and will add that "extra button is not challenge" is very much missing the context of how players actually fail or succeed. "Click button to do damage" isn't really any less complex or challenging than "run out of swirly thing", or anything else you are tasked with doing in WoW. Almost nothing in this game requires good timing or precision (because online). The challenge comes from these little things being part of a big huge list of stuff you need to pay attention to, and be on the ball for all of it. Adding one more button is actually sort of a thing when your attention and focus is already at capacity from all the other sh*t you need to do.
That said, it making the game harder is a decent enough reason to cut it. They are probably pulling back on this stuff because of pugs. I don't really have an issue with that reasoning, I could take it or leave it. You are going to get skill issued and fail at some point, I am not too concerned with how, as long as it's not blatantly unfair.
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Javen Registered User regular
1:00AM edited 1:01AM
I wouldn't even necessarily say that the inclusion of these tools necessarily makes the dungeon easier or more difficult; using the weapons or the lanterns at the right time/in the right ways could render HUGE swaths of their respective dungeons irrelevant. They're not terribly different than a lot of class tools, in many days. They do tend to be very impactful though, so I agree that their removal is likely in service of pug groups.
'Dungeon/Encounter-specific utility' is just a concept that I personally enjoy and am sad to see it go. But I also liked the dragon-riding in Grim Batol and things of that nature.
The only M+ optimizations that I tend not to jive with as much are things like the geometry glitches; the old Everbloom trash skip, or the enemy warping/line of sight stuff in Atal'dazar. Valid tools, but much less intuitive since they're obviously not intended

Javen at 1:01AM
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Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
1:01AM
the big surprise to me was seeing tuning on the battered drakes in grim batol; I thought for sure they'd just remove those but I guess we've still got'em

hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
+1
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Javen Registered User regular
1:06AM
Eat it You Nasty Pig. wrote: »
the big surprise to me was seeing tuning on the battered drakes in grim batol; I thought for sure they'd just remove those but I guess we've still got'em
They did change it quite a bit; only 5 uses of the breath per player/vehicle, the breaths seem to do less damage, and only go until the first boss (and will not damage the first boss)
The testing also just started today so it could still change in either direction
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I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
9:19AM
John Hight is leaving Blizzard
John Hight is (was) the SVP and General Manager for the Warcraft Franchise

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[WoW] The War Within Announced! - Page 95 (2024)

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